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File: _49735645_drugs_comparisons_464gr.gif -(18.6 KB, 464x538) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
19060 No.13371  
Everybody, stop drinking alcohol and start using LSD instead.
>> No.13372  
I'm working on it, but its hard to find.

I've been wanting to try out psychedelics for years now.
>> No.13373  
I've been meaning to for a while but it's quite hard to get. I do MDMA, ketamine, dextromethorphan and psilocybin mushrooms though. I might be able to get LSD this week though, I'll report back if I do.
>>13372
Depending on where you live you can buy unscheduled drugs online if you don't mind the slight risk of taking largely untested drugs. Look into Alpha-methyltryptamine (AMT), dextromethorphan and 6-APB (both legal in the UK). AMT is like being stoned x10 with occasional hallucinations and also a bit like MDMA as it's an empathogen. I actually persuaded my family (mother, aunt, two cousins of age 14 and 16) to try it and my mother saw a pig playing the piano but that pig was actually my 7 year old cousin. She thought she dreamt it and we had to explain that she had her eyes open all that time and that she was just tripping. One of the cousins on it felt like the bed was flying as she was trying to sleep and my aunt thought she was in an old abandoned mansion for a while. I've never had anything that intense on it myself though.

Dextromethorphan/DXM is, well, I'm sure I don't have to explain it, it's pretty well-known since it's cough medicine but in higher doses it's a powerful dissociative hallucinogen quite similar to ketamine. It can be bought in pure powder form online, so you don't have to actually drink a bunch of bottles of cough medicine and give yourself diabetes from all the sugar.

6-APB is basically MDMA, or more accurately, it's an analogue of MDA which is MDMA but more psychedelic. The effects of 6-APB can be seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHXi8h8H2VA
>> No.13375  
File: 199207.png -(29.7 KB, 400x400) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
30446
Obligatory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJEw3A_QO9o

I'll stick to liquor, thanks.
>> No.13376  
>mushrooms
That's a bit vague. How are you supposed to know if they're talking about psilocybin or amanita muscaria? They're different drugs with different effects
>> No.13378  
File: Caffeinated_spiderwebs.jpg -(38.4 KB, 277x463) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
39304
>>13375
Caffeine is also toxic to most animals, to the point of being a deadly poison to certain species. How toxic a substance is varies widely per species. To get the same effects the cat had, you need to get a serious overdose; for that cat, the amount required for such a serious overdose is probably less than what humans take to hallucinate. Any substance is harmful if you take too much of it (you can even get water poisoning by drinking too much water), and how much a living being can tolerate varies strongly per species.

Pic related: It's a spider's web after 100 µg of caffeine.
>> No.13380  
I drink but don't drive, and only do it at home or at someone else's. Is the harm to others reduced to zero?
>> No.13382  
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51841
>>13378
I accept your point regarding the effects of chemicals/substances, but not as a valid argument for the use of LSD over alcohol.

You can consume alcohol and not be effected. You can assume alcohol and be slightly drunk. You can consume alcohol and be incoherent. You can consume alcohol and pass the fuck out. You can consume alcohol and die. These are all based on the ranges of use you would find in society, and are dependent on amount.

To my knowledge, and correct me if I'm wrong, the uses and effects of LSD are as follows. You can take LSD and trip. You can take LSD and trip balls. You can take LSD and have a bad trip. You can take LSD and kill yourself/die. These are based on the ranges of use you would find in society, and your chance of any of these happening does not depend solely on the amount you consume. You could take a single dose of LSD, start seeing spiders crawling out of the crevices in your room, get the bright idea to jump off your apartment balcony and die. You could take an amount of LSD that would not effect your mental or physical functions, but why would you?

As far as the "study" goes, I have some concerns. How did they allow for variables? Did they consider dosages taken when harm occurred? Did they consider how important dosage was relative to when harm might occur? Did they modify the data to assume that the drugs were used in identical environments and situations to accurately identify how dangerous the drug itself is? Was this based on a total number of incidents, or did they take into consideration that some drugs are used less often and therefore cause less harm? What exactly do the values given on the x axis represent? From what I'm seeing without registering an account at the Lancet, they just got a bunch of people, whose qualifications we are expected to accept, together and asked them to give scores to the drugs.

Of course alcohol is going to cause more harm. It's easier to get, making it easier to take high doses. The fact that it's legal in some capacity makes it more likely to be consumed in public, increasing the chance of harm to others.

tl;dr I'll have another scotch, barkeep.
>> No.13383  
>You can take LSD and kill yourself
Only if you wanted to kill yourself in the first place
>/die
I can't see many ways you could die on LSD unless you do something stupid like run in front of traffic - it's not even possible to die of an LSD overdose.
>get the bright idea to jump off your apartment balcony and die
Doesn't work that way unless you're already stupid enough to jump off your balcony anyway.
>your chance of any of these happening does not depend solely on the amount you consume.
As far as I know it depends on the individual. Some people can trip balls off of half a hit/50μg. Start off small.

Obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF8cjIlvgv0
>> No.13398  
>>13383
>with one man climbing a tree to feed the birds
Sounds fairly dangerous to me. Not to mention that one guy was evacuated. Funny video, though.

>Only if you wanted to kill yourself in the first place
Are you denying that hallucinogens can aggravate one's emotional state? Suicidal urges are countless times more common than suicides. Just because the desire may be there doesn't mean that people generally act on it.

Also, an accident like running into traffic was more or less what I was giving an example of with the balcony scenario.

I guess the big thing for me is that alcohol can be used "responsibly". With LSD, you can go as far as to get a trip sitter, but you're still risking your health. Even if that risk is small when compared to amount of stupidity found in the drinking community, it exists.
>> No.13399  
>>13398
>Are you denying that hallucinogens can aggravate one's emotional state? Suicidal urges are countless times more common than suicides. Just because the desire may be there doesn't mean that people generally act on it.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. Hallucinogens usually inflate your current emotion - if you're happy and you take acid you're going to be really happy. If you're a depressed suicidal person and you take acid it's going to be the worst experience of your life. Those types of people should stay away from hallucinogens unless they're mentally prepared for the worst. Though, at the same time LSD and other hallucinogens are said to be able to cure depression by way of ego death and giving them a new perspective on life. Once you've experienced ego death and you've been detached from what it is to be a human, learn what it feels like to just 'be' pure consciousness and felt literally connected to everything in the universe the problems of one lone human like yourself seem trivial in comparison.

As for the jumping off a balcony scenario: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D0BeLz5blM (also ties into the ego death thing - this is the first time I've listened to this after experiencing ego death actually and I finally know what he's talking about)
>> No.13409  
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40265
I'm no drug expert, but I know ecstasy causes permanent damage to brain neurons even with relatively low use, so its harm to user being so low made me question the chart.

Sure enough, I tracked down what I think is the article the graph is citing (Nutt et al., 2007) and if it is the chart OP posted misrepresents the findings of the study. Here is a graph directly from the article. It's still important to note a couple things. First, these are just arbitrary ratings given by "experts" so they aren't empirically based. Second, this factors in "social harm" which is irrelevant in regard to individual choice. For example tobacco has lower social harm because taxes from it go to healthcare, yet that doesn't make it any less harmful to an individual.

Ecstasy is still really low, and when I searched for the article I first found a response to it where someone was criticizing its underestimation of the harm of ecstasy (and a response to the response by Nutt, who admitted the other guy had a point).
>> No.13410  
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32485
And here's a table so you can look at just individual harm. You'll notice that the difference between alcohol and LSD isn't that great.

Again, I'm not sure if this is the same study. This study didn't use the same terms as the OP's chart (harm to users/others, cumulative weight) and the results are very different, though it wouldn't be the first time druggies misrepresented scientific findings to try to support their points. But it was the only relevant one I could find searching The Lancet for drug +harm and even just harm. And even if it isn't the same one this study offers a different look at the issue, and one that is frankly more believable.
>> No.13412  
>>13410
Alkyl nitrates look pretty sweet if that's anything to go by.
>> No.13425  
>>13399
My only point has been that I don't believe LSD is realistically safer than alcohol.
>> No.13433  
>>13425
Well I'm afraid that your subjective opinion goes against the vast majority of professional studies and research.
Are you sure preconceptions are not clouding your judgement?
>> No.13434  
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348451
>>13433
We'll put subjective opinions aside, then. I have listed the concerns I have regarding the currently cited study in >>13382. I'd be interested to read all other research you can reference, especially anything suggesting that responsible use of LSD could lengthen your lifespan.

http://www.healthfinder.gov/news/newsstory.aspx?docID=637136
>> No.13435  
Yeah another major problem with that other study is it doesn't take into consideration frequency of use, or even amount used. With alcohol it's easy to drink an amount that won't affect you at all, or maybe will only give you a buzz, but as far as I know people don't consume other drugs in that way.

Also after looking at the study more I found this somewhat important part: "direct comparison of the scores for tobacco and alcohol with those of other drugs is not possible since the fact that they are legal could affect their harms in various ways, especially through easier availability." Though the researchers go on to ignore their own advice many times.


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