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97600 No.39523  
Let's move the discussion into a separate thread instead of derailing an existing one.
>> No.39524  
>>39468
I never said it wasn't true, but the two sentences you just wrote have nothing to do with each other. Blame the people that wrote the bible (male) or god (the Father), but not the people that are standing by their doctrine. The idea that high ranking women would get the Catholic church to advocate support for abortion, which the bible is unquestionably against, is mind boggling. Religions are not meant to be partially subscribed to, and anyone that picks only the parts of a religion or scripture they feel good about to believe in is substantially more deluded than any fundamentalist.
>> No.39525  
>>39524
I thought the Catholic church supports and has supported things that aren't in the Bible before. It'd be mind boggling if something that affects the lives of women a lot more than men did get support.

Not exactly related but I was reminded of this:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-april-11-2012/bro-choice
>> No.39526  
>>39524
I haven't participated in this discussion so far, but the Bible itself is not "unquestionably against" abortion. It never states that life begins at conception and that the killing of an unborn child is akin to murder.

Actually, the penalties for accidentally killing a fetus (by harming a pregnant woman) are rather tame. See Exodus 21:22-23. But now that I look it up, those passages are quite controversial (with most modern translations describing it as a "premature birth" where the KJV says "depart from her").

Anyway, that's pretty much my point. The Bible gives no explicit answer to the question of abortion, so Man must interpret God's intent however he will. I think that the Church's current stance is a fine interpretation, but it's not the only one. There are many Christians who are pro-choice, and I even know some pro-choice Catholics (I live in an area where Church dogma isn't highly stressed).

But all that aside, those feminists are silly (as are most extremists). Pope Francis is already fairly "progressive," and you can't expect him to completely swing around the Church's stance on abortion. It would cause an enormous clusterfuck of controversy.

I think he put it rather nicely in his recent address: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/joan-desmond/pope-francis-evangelii-gaudium-tackles-abortion-and-religious-freedom
>> No.39527  
>>39524
>abortion, which the bible is unquestionably against
The Bible says nothing about abortion. Anything the Bible is claimed to say about abortion is overly broad interpretation.

Prostitution is a more complicated issue. Prostitutes are depicted as immoral, but non-religious prostitution does not seem to be forbidden outright, nor does having sex with a prostitute unless it is adultery. (Most Bible verses raised against prostitution forbid 'sexual immorality', which does not include prostitution in Mosaic law.) It is, however, forbidden to push your own daughter into prostitution.

Lesbianism is not explicitly forbidden in the Bible, but a reasonable case can be made for lesbian sexual intercourse; sexual intercourse between men is forbidden. The Bible rarely makes explicit statements for women, so even though it's not explicitly stated you could deduce that this extends to women. There's nothing in the Bible about homosexual romance when no sex is involved.

Cross-dressing is explicitly forbidden in the Bible (Deuteronomy 22:5).
>> No.39528  
>>39526
>Actually, the penalties for accidentally killing a fetus (by harming a pregnant woman) are rather tame. See Exodus 21:22-23. But now that I look it up, those passages are quite controversial (with most modern translations describing it as a "premature birth" where the KJV says "depart from her").
That's for accidental surprise abortion, which has nothing to do with actual abortion, similar to how accidentally getting someone's slave killed (payment of 30 shekels, Exodus 21:32) has nothing to do with murder.
>> No.39529  
>>39526
There is nothing remotely vague about the belief that your human existence is recognized by an omnipotent god before conception, and if the argument of the morality of abortion is centered on when human life begins then there is nothing to be interpreted about the impact of that belief. The Christian god has a perfect plan for you that doesn't just start during the third trimester. There is also nothing vague about the bible's stance on murder.

I'm not sure why you're bringing up the rest of this, but the bible is also clear about sex outside of marriage and sex without any procreational intent. It's all considered sinful. This is why organizations were resisting being responsible for covering birth control in the health care offered to their employees.
>> No.39530  
>>39529
I'm not sure if you're trolling or just indoctrinated by your local (probably Catholic by the sound of it) church.

>your human existence is recognized by an omnipotent god before conception
>The Christian god has a perfect plan for you
>sex outside of marriage and sex without any procreational intent. It's all considered sinful.

None of those are stated in the Bible, just widely held opinions in churches (and official interpretation in Catholicism). God is omniscient and omnipotent, but what He does to your life is up to His whims. Christians generally agree that God takes care of people in their everyday lives, but there is no reason to believe (beyond wishful thinking) that He has carefully planned out your life to make everything have meaning.

There are multiple instances in the Bible of sex between non-married people is depicted in a non-negative way, and it is not forbidden to have sex for reasons other than procreation (though procreation was seen as a virtue by the Israelites (due to God's command to populate the earth), so procreation was important to them in sex). Only sex between a married person and someone that person is not married to (adultery) is sinful according to the Bible (in addition to 'sexual immorality' such as incest).
>> No.39531  
It's a shame the Bible is complete bullshit.
>> No.39532  
>>39530
Why would I be trolling? Even more, why would you think that an establishment run by people who literally devote their lives to a scripture would pull shit out of thin air? Do you think they're trolling the entire world? Jeremiah 1:5 is the popular verse thrown around but there are plenty that reference god's work in the womb and before conception. Sex is biblically stated to be a pleasure of the flesh, and indulgence is sinful. We are talking about a Catholic issue, why would I be arguing any other perspective? If you care about why these important religious authorities hold these apparently misconceived notions about what the bible says is immoral it's incredibly easy to Google. And yes, no shit, the bible says some things that are easy to point out as being contradictory.

Seriously though, I can respect Catholics and other conservative religions for actually sticking to their beliefs. Protestantism was the beginning of watered-down, willful delusion. It's like the fast food revolution of Christianity, "Have it your way!"
>> No.39533  
>>39532
There are many different interpretations of the bible and even interpretations by specific sects (including Catholicism) change. The bible is clearly not an objective thing. Therefore yes it is reasonable to hold the current church responsible for current church doctrine.
>> No.39534  
>>39532
>Even more, why would you think that an establishment run by people who literally devote their lives to a scripture would pull shit out of thin air?
Because they have power, and power will always be used to force people's morals onto other people. They want people to be convinced that X, so they say the Bible says X, and anyone who disagrees is now a heretic.

>Seriously though, I can respect Catholics and other conservative religions for actually sticking to their beliefs. Protestantism was the beginning of watered-down, willful delusion.
Protestantism was the reaction against Catholicism going completely retarded. They've cleaned up their act a bit since (no more paying cash to the church to have your sins forgiven), but they still have a lot of doctrines that just don't make sense with the Bible. For example, throughout the Bible people are repeatedly punished for idolatry of all kinds. So what do the Catholics do? They create tons of art depicting God, turn Mary into an object of worship, and appoint a bunch of historic people as saints.

>Jeremiah 1:5
That verse shows that Jeremiah, one of the major prophets, was chosen by God before he was born. You and I are not major prophets, so we can't just assume it also refers to us. It also means nothing about whether a fetus is a human being; the verse specifically refers to BEFORE he was even a fetus, and it refers to God's omniscience (He knew Jeremiah would be born in the future, He was not referring to a Jeremiah that already existed back then).

>Sex is biblically stated to be a pleasure of the flesh, and indulgence is sinful.
Please provide sources for your statements.

>>39531
>It's a shame the Bible is complete bullshit.
Even if you're not religious, you'll have to admit the Bible has philosophical, cultural and historic value.
>> No.39550  
>>39534
Ask yourself this, chosen amongst who? The idea is that God is at work starting before conception and conception is already within the process of your development in his image. I'm not going to get into a meticulously cited debate with someone that isn't doing the same.

>>39533
Which is why it's really stupid to rail against the beliefs of a religion or denomination instead of just disavowing it. They don't reach these beliefs randomly and I'm not sure why a bunch of feminists or internet armchair critics think they're more qualified bible scholars than the Catholic clergy.
>> No.39572  
I'm sorry, but has Mary even engaged in sexual intercourse? Oh, that’s right. She hasn't even made contact with a man outside of dive therapy. In fact, it’s only therapy involving fields for soothing. Does not having a cliche tsundere personality make you a slut? Is that what you’re saying? Because if you’re saying that I can assure you that you’re wrong. Why would you make this topic when the game is already finished and we know for certain she is pure? Mary is a holy maiden now and she was been the purest maiden in Bethlehem? Mary has to go up against one of the sluttiest reyvateils in Judea who just happened to have a lead because she was praying on God's innocence. But you know what? Satan is still a whore. Mary is the best heroine in all three games, she has the best songs. Mary has already won God over, she would have done it sooner if it wasn't for her tragedy with her sister throwing her for a mental loop. Maybe you should shut the fuck up before you make retarded topics like this. You know why? Because you're going to be embarrassed when Mary is proven a better waifu than any other in the Bible. Satan tries to latch on to anyone who would have shown her a different and free life. Are you retarded? Are you autistic? You are a fucking idiot and you should never make a topic on this board again and I’m fucking serious. I almost have a feeling you’re the only guy making all these anti-Mary topics because you’re a faggot hater who doesn’t like a heroine because they’re canonically pure. Fuck you, be good at something in YOUR life and then maybe try to troll these fucking idiots on the board, like I give a fuck. It’s so easy to spot out your threads now, you’re a retard. Always doing stupid shit like this. Why don’t you try to be a good poster? Just for once? For once in your fucking life try not to make a topic like this. That’s just you, you’re always right at getting it wrong. Fuck you. You are nothing.
>> No.39574  
>>39572
Diving is even more intimate than sexual intercourse. She's like a super-prostitute.
>> No.39587  
>>39572
Ar Tonelico is a Christian game?
>> No.39594  
>>39587
You don't remember the bit in Ar Bible where Man in his scientific arrogance tried playing God and the surface of the Earth was covered by a sea of death, limiting life to the arktowers of Babelnoah?

I think these analogies fit better to Evangelion than to the actual Bible. That was clearly First Impact.


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