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File: 200px-Future_Trunks_ultra_ssj.png -(62.3 KB, 200x150) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
63840 No.17770  
I still like Dragon Ball Z. Is this wrong?
>> No.17774  
File: 1234544337084.png -(2910.9 KB, 1600x1200) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
All shounen series suffer from popularity hate. Since shounen series are so popular, their main audience are people who don't seriously watch anime (in the current generation, they're called Narutards). Since these people tend to be annoying, shounen series and people watching them tend to be looked down upon.

So yes, seriously liking any shounen series, even a classic like Dragon Ball Z, is considered 'wrong'. You're not supposed to enjoy it or talk about it because it's a show for annoying newbies.

That said, I don't think there's any wrong with liking shounen despite what haters say. I read US Shonen Jump and I enjoy it, even if shounen series aren't exactly the most DEEP manga around. I think even many of the shounen haters like shounen deep down inside and are just hating on it to seem cool.

After all, even in a community like this, stuff like Fate/stay night is hugely popular. It's well-made and it's a VN so it isn't nearly as popular as shounen manga/anime, but you can hardly deny that a story with a school-going teenage protagonist who suddenly ends up in a magical battle and doesn't understand anything yet has limitless potential and will keep fighting his enemies for his ideals despite being completely defeated several times (he always manages to get up again through sheer willpower and win because he believes in his ideals) is a shounen story.

It's 'wrong' in that people will hate on it, but you're free to read or watch whatever you enjoy reading or watching. If you enjoy it, just don't listen to the haters.
>> No.17780  
Shounen is usually aimed at kids and young teens, F/SN is not. I see your point though.

You can like whatever you want, just don't be an annoying retard about it. Narutards and Bakmonogatari/Madoka/whatever-is-cool-and-hip-nowadaysfags are equally annoying.
But hey, Dragonball is one of my favourite action manga and I enjoyed Naruto a lot before timeskip happened. Hell, I even read Bleach before.
>> No.17844  
Um, Fate/stay night isn't "shounen" by any means. It's an eroge, with a target audience of 18+.
>> No.17850  
There's shounen as a demographic (males 12-18) and there's shounen as a genre (teen protagonist with unparalleled potential, lots of fighting, IRON WILL, etc). I'm talking about the genre.
>> No.17857  
File: 1294438984807.jpg -(510.7 KB, 715x1000) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
>shounen as a genre (teen protagonist with unparalleled potential, lots of fighting, IRON WILL, etc)

I feel that's a rather brash distinction to make. Sure, Fate/stay night has all of those elements, but it is really much more complex than you're making it out to be. Hell, the whole point of Fate is that it's a deconstruction of those very "shounen" elements.

Would you consider Muv-Luv Alternative to be "shounen," considering that it contains all of the traits outlined above?
>> No.17861  
File: The Golden King.PNG -(982.3 KB, 800x600) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Fate/stay night has all of the shounen tropes and plays them straight. It's not a deconstruction unless you avoid the most obvious cliches and do it in a way that makes them look obvious.

Not every story with a teen protagonist with an iron will and limitless potential is a shounen story, but if the entire story is about said teenage protagonist fighting increasingly stronger enemies, always almost losing but ending up only just winning through sheer willpower, then yes, every such manga and anime so far has been called a 'shounen' manga/anime.
>> No.17865  
Calling 'shounen' a genre is as bad as calling 'moe' a genre. It just makes you look stupid.
>> No.17890  
At its core, Fate/stay night is a deconstruction of justice and heroism in "shounen" types of works. To accomplish this, it presents a basic "shounen" plot (the Fate route) and then tears it to pieces by explicating the contradictions inherit to the narrative.
>> No.17891  
Shounen has no porn and people dont die when they are killed in shounen.
>> No.17897  
You do realize f/sn is about 7 dead heroes fighting eachother, right?
The 'people die when they're killed' comes straight from f/sn, where Shirou explains that unlike other people, he doesn't die when he's killed (and the same goes for many other characters).

Furthermore, in Shounen it's very common for 'the bad guys' to die when they're killed. To take OP's series Dragon Ball Z as an example; Raditz is killed at the start of the series, Nappa is killed during the Saiyan invasion arc, Freeza is the only one escaping death once because Goku REFUSED TO KILL HIM (but he did die once he was killed), Android 16 and 17 died after they were killed (Android 18 was later allowed to come back because she would become a 'good guy'), Cell definitely did die when he was killed and Buu was killed (and ironically only his 'good guy' side came back). Add to that the countless minor evil characters that were killed (Zarbon, Dabura, etc), and you have plenty of characters that just died when they were killed.
Well, until Dragon Ball GT came along and broke canon, but that's a different matter entirely.
>> No.17903  
Let me rephrase it.
Good guys don't die when they are killed.
Its been a long time since I read any shounen but lets take a few examples like HxH and OP when I read them years ago.
Luffy, Zoro, Gon and gang didnt even lose a beat when they bled a fountain of blood.
How can anyone be alive after getting their whole body slashed and nuked. It is like they will only truly die when they get their head chopped off but not even this gurantee their death. Remember that veteran hunter from HxH that became a zombie and but then come back.
>> No.17905  
You could argue that Fate closely follows fighting shounen patterns, and maybe make an argument for UBW as well, but if you think HF is like typical battle shounen then I don't even know what to say. It's just so obviously not the case.
>> No.17912  
File: 7aeaf07f9e1cb2cdb47461bbfc7c90b0607796a6.jpg -(33.3 KB, 698x520) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
I'm talking about f/sn in general. You have a point that HF is a lot less heavy on the shounen, although there's still a decent amount of shounen stuff in there as well.

You're kidding, right? Shirou survives fatal wounds MORE OFTEN than the average shounen protagonist. In fact, he even LITERALLY DIES at they very start of the story (and again at the end of Heaven's Feel). Fate has a total of 1 good guy death, which is a heroic sacrifice, which is an accepted good guy death in shounen. UBW has 0 good guy deaths. HF contains 1, 2 or 3 good guy deaths, depending on how you define 'death', and the only certain death is all the way at the end of the story (having people die when the story's over is fine in shounen as well).

List of deaths in Fate:
Shirou (he gets better)
Rider (enemy)
Shinji (enemy)
Archer (heroic sacrifice)
Beserker (enemy)
Caster (enemy)
Lancer (enemy)
Gilgamesh (enemy)
Kotomine (enemy)

List of deaths in UBW:
Shirou (he gets better)
Rider (enemy)
Berserker (enemy)
Ilya (enemy)
Caster (enemy)
Kuzuki (enemy)
Kotomine (enemy)
Lancer (enemy)
Archer (good guy turned enemy, gets better because he turns into a good guy again)
Gilgamesh (enemy)

List of deaths in HF:
*It can be argued that most of the servants in this route do not immediately die, but instead just turn into their dark versions.
Shirou (he gets better)
Assassin (enemy)
Kuzuki (enemy)
Caster (enemy)*
Lancer (enemy)*
Dark Caster (enemy)
Saber (good guy)*
Berserker (enemy)*
Archer (good guy, lives on in Shirou)
Gilgamesh (enemy)*
Shinji (enemy)
Dark Berserker (enemy)
True Assassin (enemy)
Dark Saber (enemy)
Kotomine (enemy)
Zouken (enemy)
Ilya (good guy, end-of-story death, heroic sacrifice)
Shirou (he gets better)
>> No.17913  
Just going by the true ends? Shirou usually doesn't get better, it's just that the story has to end where he doesn't. There are like 45 different endings, right?
>> No.17914  
Obviously, only VNs can show the 'what-if' scenarios where the story derails into something unsalvageable. I'm going by the main storyline, not the 30 couple-of-lines bad ends.
During the main storyline, it happens often enough that the good guys don't die even when they're killed.
Tsukihime is a terrible story, at one point they even have a shark suddenly appearing from the floor in a hotel and eating the protagonist!
>> No.17917  

Even then, there's stuff like HF normal end.
>> No.17919  
The vast majority of those characters aren't really even "bad guys," though. Only Gilgamesh, Kotomine, and Zouken fall into that category (and possibly True Assassin as well). Caster's faction is debatable, but they're more neutral than anything.
>> No.17920  
Guys, guys.
The happy endings with few deaths are only a tiny fraction of the endings in F/sn. The overwhelming majority have Shirou die when he is killed.
>> No.17921  
File: 0060.jpg -(223.7 KB, 800x600) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Anybody who repeatedly tries to kill you is an enemy. Anybody who is likely to kill you on sight due to severely conflicting interests (like, I don't know, being unable to win as long as certain other characters are still alive) is an enemy.

Just because the fanbase makes all characters seem nice, doesn't mean they are. Rider tried to mass murder people for extra energy, Caster eliminated almost every servant and tried to kill Shirou and Rin in UBW (and tried to kill Shirou in Fate as well), and Ilya repeatedly attempts to kill Shirou.

Picture related: It's a friendly good guy, controlled by the nicest character.
>> No.17923  
Aside from the four characters I listed earlier, the entire cast is shown in a positive light at some point or another. Ilya loves her onii-chan, Berserker is Ilya's heroic guardian, Caster likes it rough, and Rider is ultimately devoted to her master's (i.e. Sakura's) well-being.

I don't mean to say that those characters aren't antagonistic at points in the story, because they are. Rather, my point is that they're more than simple "bad guys;" they're supposed to be likable/sympathetic characters by the end of the game.
>> No.17924  
File: sasuke-and-itachi-uchiha.jpg -(451.8 KB, 1024x768) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Last I checked, it isn't uncommon to have bad guys which are very much liked by the fanbase. One major criticism of Naruto is actually that bad guy Sasuke gets more spotlight than the protagonist Naruto. And yes, he's a good guy at some point, has an intended-to-be-dramatic backstory and there's plenty of attention for his angst (for fangirls to sympathize with).
>> No.17927  
To add to this, one way in which you can see Fate/stay night drifting away from a stereotypical "shounen" plot is in the portrayal of such side characters. In the Fate route, almost all of the characters are black and white, but in the later routes, much more ambiguity is introduced. Hell, in Heaven's Feel, the main antagonist is the main heroine, and Kotomine even teams up with Shirou for a brief period.
>> No.17928  
That's different. I'm not talking about bad guys that are supposed to be likeable (that would be Kotomine and Gil), I'm talking about characters that are neither "good" nor "bad."

Caster never had any real reason to fight with Shirou: she only wanted to be with the man she loved. Certainly, she did perform "evil" acts, but that was because she was (unwillingly) involved in a war.
>> No.17944  
File: vizards.jpg -(102.0 KB, 580x448) Thumbnail displayed, click image for full size.
Neutral characters also exist in Shounen.

>Caster never had any real reason to fight with Shirou: she only wanted to be with the man she loved. Certainly, she did perform "evil" acts, but that was because she was (unwillingly) involved in a war.
That, sir, is called a 'motive' and it does not make anybody any less of an enemy. Itachi was forced to kill the entire Uchiha clan to prevent a war. The shinigami captains were only defending soul society against the invaders (the protagonists). Before they left Namek, Vegeta was mainly fighting so he could finally overthrow Freeza and avenge his home planet and his race, which Freeza wiped out. Sensui only started fighting humans because of the cruelty they inflicted on the demons.
>> No.17978  
I never said anything about neutral characters not being in shounen. You're misconstruing my argument.

You made the list of all the characters that died, and neatly categorized them into "good guys" and "bad guys," with the purpose of demonstrating that few "good guys" ever die in Fate/stay night. My point was that there isn't such a clean dichotomy between good and evil, and there are many deaths of "enemies" which have a strong impact (e.g.: Ilya and Lancer's deaths in UBW).

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